Monday, September 8, 2014
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
This is going to be short and sweet. I liked the movie but it didn't really pack much of a punch. There were lots of iconic scenes which seem to have become tropes. I had seen bits and pieces of the movie through the years and now that I have seen it through it still feels a bit like I have scene bits and pieces. It has the chaotic non sequitur feel many movies from the 60's have. I find it jarring and don't care much for it. I feel it is a good movie but suffers too much from the time frame it was made. I found myself wondering in the middle of it about how hair styles have changed in westerns made in different decades. Robert Redford was rocking a serious quaff in this film. Some damn fine lines in the movie though. "there ain't no rules in a knife fight!" "hell the fall will probably kill you!"
Eh probably won't sit through it in toto again. B-
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When one of the cowboys is riding around on the bicycle with the girl and he eats that apple, I thought Shane would probably be pretty upset with the blatant organic apple propaganda and definitely upset with the fixie bike scenes.
ReplyDeleteThis movie was enjoyable to watch. Even though it seemed like 1/2 of it was them getting chased through the mountains and desert. That part was relatively enjoyable due to the witty/funny banter.
Best
+++Fixie Bikes
++Cowboy banter
++Opening gang fight
+Sharing a wife/girlfriend (how weird)
+"Who are those guys"
=Still trying to make my mind up about the ending
-Too much nothing going on.
-Wasted potential with the masterful on screen chemistry.
--Organic apples
Starting an easily swayable "B". Trying to relate it to The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Not sure which was better.
They don't really share the wife/girlfriend. Butch just has a platonic relationship with her. I liked that it didn't go down a predictable path where their mutual attraction to her splits them up.
DeleteA movie I'd been wanting a push to watch for awhile, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was worth the wait. This was a lot of fun, not a descriptor I'd usually apply to Westerns.
ReplyDeleteTopper mentioned the chaotic directing style, and while he wasn't a fan of it, I thought it was the movie's greatest asset. The innovation of the 60's and 70's applied to the most old-fashioned of genres really spices things up. Everything in sepia is excellent. The opening robbery filmed like a turn-of-the-century projector reel establishes the mythic reputation of Butch and Sundance, and the New York montage rises to the top of montage movie sequences, up there with anything Scorsese or Paul Thomas Anderson has done. The final shot fading to sepia again brings back their legendary status, freezing them in amber as they charge to their deaths. All these tricks and techniques make a straightforward story that much more interesting.
Of the two leads, Newman is the clear winner. He's simply a more dynamic actor. Butch is also given more to do, struggling with his first kills while Sundance has dozens of pelts on his belt, or just displaying more sides of himself than taciturn competence. Redford is someone I'm generally lukewarm on, as I think he generally just plays approximately the same role over and over again, but that he wouldn't do that if he wasn't good at that one role. This is as good as he's ever been, a convincing strong-silent badass who's also not invincible. Their dynamic is easy and effective, still learning new things about each other despite their working together for years.
In supporting roles, Katharine Ross doesn't impress as Etta. It's likely a combination of an underwritten role and the actor not bringing anything extra. The writing around her arc is much better. I did love her final scene with Butch and Sundance. They've clearly made their minds up to stay on their current path, and not wanting to watch them die, she internally makes the decision to leave. That is some great show-don't-tell writing. The hapless Woodcock is fun, as is the mine foreman who can't keep his tobacco juice out of his beard.
Though I very much liked the acting and directing (George Roy Hill) and writing, I do think Butch and Sundance is a pretty empty movie, telling a character-based tale without a lot of universality. It's impeccably made, but lacking in emotional punch or profundity, the necessary extras to get out of the B's. Aside from Ross's lack of impact, which as flaws go is more about negative space than an actual negative, this is technically flawless but fluffy. Classic B+.
A couple of things...
DeleteWould you mind clarifying universality to me? I want to make sure I understand how you're using it.
I can see how there's not a lot of emotional punch, but did you not find yourself hoping they'd get away in the end?
Where is the fluff? Does looking at this as a buddy movie instead of a Western make a difference here?
I'm using the lack of universality in the sense that the story and its beats only apply to the characters. They're framed as legends and while the film pokes holes in that, it ultimately reinforces that status. I don't think there's anything for the viewer to take with them beyond a good time.
DeleteOn the ending, no, I was not hoping they'd get away, because they're kinda assholes. Stretch out that final scene. That's a lot of fathers who won't be going home to their families.
It's fluffy because there's very little pathos and beyond the leads' charisma, I'm not emotionally attached. The morality is that of a classic Western, such that the movie's always on their side and everyone else is just a faceless guy in a hat. I guess it flips it in the sense that the white hats and black hats are reversed, but it doesn't ask anything extra from the viewer. It's simply a good time. There's nothing wrong with that, but it means your movie has a ceiling.
Would you say that a movie whose focus is just being a fun movie can never be an A?
DeleteNot necessarily. Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Avengers stick out. Kill Bill is my favorite movie, and it's a huge amount of fun once you get on its wavelength. There's no movie more fun than Goodfellas or its descendant Boogie Nights. I don't think Butch and Sundance was as much fun as those. There's probably a point of critical mass where fun can break the plane, but I would have a hard time quantifying why one is an A and the other is a B. A's are very often about feeling for me, and that wasn't there for Butch and Sundance.
DeleteI love Westerns. I even had this movie in my Netflix queue when Topper selected it. So I was pretty pumped about the selection. (I don't have a very large queue, so knocking something off of the list always feels better than it should.)
ReplyDeleteBut this movie was nothing like I expected. I expected something more similar to The Good, The Bad, The Ugly or even Tombstone. Something gritty, dirty and violent. Instead, this movie is more of a buddy team-up movie that happens to be set in the Old West. And unlike modern day buddy movies, this one totally works because it is different, well-executed, and to repeat Kissel, fun.
Newman absolutely nails it in this role. I don't know much about Newman, but I never thought him as a funnyman. He is in this role and I think it suits him well. He pulls off the scheming but generally aloof mastermind. I like that the film sets him up in the second scene as someone who may not be outwardly a tough guy, but he is someone who can handles his business when he beats up Danny Trejo's dad. That's a good scene that lets the movie tell you something rather than treating the audience like a child.
We get the same with Redford as Sundance. After staring at him in shock while thinking about how similar he looks like Brad Pitt, I bought him as the brooding type. It's harder to play that role, but Redford was good playing the strong and silent type. I think he succeeds because of his total loyalty to Butch. He's not a wildcard. He's measured and consistently embraces second fiddle. Too often the strong silent types are forced to come out of their shells and lead, becoming Every Man. The "I can't swim" line is my favorite of the movie. Redford blurts it out in desperation and the audience guffaws with Newman.
Speaking of the lines, it feels like I've heard them all before. Perhaps that's because every buddy movie is copying off of this one. We might consider it fluff in today's movies, but I think here it is something that is original. I'm willing to give trendsetting movies a bump, and this one is no different.
I agree with Kissel, Katharine Ross doesn't really do much here other than look good. It's no surprise that she doesn't go on to have an iconic career (according to my mother in-law). I don't think she had much of a role other than being an observer, though. Through her eyes we could see some humanizing of Butch and Sundance separately. I think this is largely successful in developing their characters, but not hers. Thinking about it now, she reminds me of the episode of MASH "Point of View" where we see that characters not interacting in their normal roles with other characters. It would have been nice for something more, perhaps, but I'm fine with the focus on Butch and Sundance.
I also enjoyed the directing. I thought there were a lot of excellent camera angles that framed the scenes well. We get these grand shots of beautiful scenery and then we get some close-ups of our two heroes. I thought the opening scene is sepia worked. It takes us back to another time, trumps up the importance of the scene. I didn't enjoy the New York montage. I just couldn't get into it and New York might as well have never happened. I love the decision to leave just the slightest bit of ambiguity in the end. Intellectually, we know they didn't make it out alive. But emotionally we're hoping that they do and reserve a small spot in the back of our brains that maybe, just maybe, Butch got them out of there alive with some sort of plan. Or Maybe Sundance shot the army general and the men all lost discipline. Of course those things never happened, but when you read the history that there is controversy as to whether Butch and Sundance were really killed in Bolivia, it does add just the right amount of mystery. Again, though, the movie lets us figure it out rather than a payoff of seeing them shot to death. I like it.
ReplyDeleteI hate fixie bikes when hipsters are riding them in the middle of busy, city streets because there are practical options out there: bikes with gears. We've had that invention for awhile, jerk-off hipsters. But I love the bike in the country scene. I loved that it showed us more of Butch. So I'm pro fixie bike in this narrow case.
I guess I would have liked some more character building or a bit more development of the "bad guy." It would have been interesting to learn more about why Butch and Sundance were they way they were, but I'm not too upset about it. Really, I just don't have that many negatives.
A-
I don't really see where your hope comes from. Basically, we're treated like Etta here... If anything, we're emotionally aware, and we know what's going to happen, and that's why we just don't need to see it. I felt as if there was far more uncertainty in real life, than in the movie. Perhaps if they just left us with them sitting there, conversing about where they're going next... I could have saved some emotional hope
DeleteI think it comes from being in denial, which is a powerful state to be in. Managing denial is a key part of being successful as a person. It's always present in our minds. Teasing out that denial is a nice twist. Yeah, they're goners, but it's fun to think "Well just maybe." It's like the day dreaming that goes with buying a lottery ticket every once in awhile.
DeleteI'm always a little curious as to what makes a writer/director go a certain way when they're doing a take on historic people/events that have a bit of uncertainty to them. Something like... From Hell, for example, where we don't truly know who Jack the Ripper is in real life (although, new DNA evidence claim otherwise), but a specific suspect is chosen. The end of the Spartacus series is another. It just makes me wonder why a direction gets chosen. Is it a better story, the most believable, or just the favorite of whoever has say. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid is another, although it seems to be based on what the most believable outcome is, and I don't really think the movie left us any doubt (or hope).
ReplyDeleteAnyway.. I thought the acting was top notch. Newman and Redford had some great chemistry and both give great performances.... which is important since their on the screen almost the entire time. Katherine Ross was fine, I thought, she just wasn't given much to work with. I would have like to see more about Etta Place... especially toward the end as her fate seems even more uncertain than Butch and Sundance.
The sepia parts distracted me quite a bit. I get it, and I'm not against montages... but this one felt unnecessary and just in the way. As amusing as it was seeing them baffled by the Pinkerton crew tracking them down... it did feel as if it went on a bit long.
I enjoyed much of the dialogue, and there are definitely some memorable lines. I think the delivery from Newman and Redford take that up a notch, as well.
Overall, It was an enjoyable movie and had some laughs. Great acting and witty dialogue take over despite a less than compelling story, dragging, and an unnecessary montage. I'll settle in for a B+
Jon nailed it when he described the movie as fun. I loved the fact that like Shane I had no idea the movie had the fun tone and was expecting a much more traditional western. Unlike Shane, I don't particularly like Westerns. Tombstone is obviously great, but I don't enjoy the typical stone faced zero emotion characters that we get in 90% of them. Butch and Sundance was obviously not that which made it infinitely more relatable.
ReplyDeleteI'll defend Katherine Ross a bit here, she filled the part exactly how it needed to be filled. Her job was to elevate Butch and Sundance individually and to reinforce the bond they shared and she did just that. In her opening scene we meet her and for a moment worry that Sundance is just a ruthless gun before realizing the relationship revealing that layer of humanity to him. When Butch comes by on his new bike and they have their moment and she outright asks him if things would be different his response is basically that he wouldn't have it any other way. Both men are in love with Etta and she's in love with them both but Butch and Sundance care for each other too much for that to be awkward for them.
I give the first third an A the last third an A and the middle third a B- because it just kinda moved along and we didn't get alot of the dialogue that made the beginning and end so good. A-.
I meant to reply to Tom's hair styles comment. This is something Adam Carolla always talks about as it relates to Happy Days and the Brady Bunch. Both shows started out with hair styles that matched the periods they were portraying and a few seasons in every says "F that we're trying to get laid out here I'm wearing my hair how I'm wearing my hair" I think for this movie it was more we want our stars to look great and let everyone else be scraggly messes but I loved that you pointed it out.
ReplyDeleteMan, a lot of my thoughts have already been thrown out there… Even my Redford/Pitt observation has already made it in. Glad I’m not the only one who saw that. I’ll stick to more of what I enjoyed about the plot rather than belaboring the points that everyone has made about the acting and directing. Although I have to slightly disagree with Shane’s mother on Katherine Ross… I liked her in The Graduate and she does a better job there.
ReplyDeleteI discussed this quickly when talking about “The Game,” and I’ll bring it up again here. It’s very easy to screw up the exposition. I felt like this movie built its first act damn-near perfectly. We learn who they are, their reputation, why Butch is in charge of the gang, their taste for women, Butch’s unwavering trust in Sundance’s instincts, (“We’re losin em right?” “I don’t think so.” “Yeah, me neither.”) & Sundance’s blind faith in Butch’s plans. All of this is done very skillfully and without any sort of overt mention of it. I really felt like I knew Butch and Sundance once the desert chase kicked in.
I actually thought the desert chase was very well done. I know Shane complained about not learning more about the bad guys – I thought it was a stroke of genius. It built up tension to keep mystery around these guys. Also, we were working with limited storytelling here – we were with Butch and Sundance for the entire movie. Going to another set of characters would have broken that mechanic. It made the audience almost a third member of the group, only learning the information Butch and Sundance had. It probably did drag on a bit too long – we pretty much understood the desperation of the situation early enough on.
Then we get to Bolivia, where, like Kissel mentioned, I’m really happy they didn’t go the love triangle route. IMO, it would have been out of character for Butch, who clearly wasn’t looking for a serious relationship. To address Shane’s other minor gripe, I feel like we learn why Butch and Sundance are who they are while in Bolivia. They try to go straight, and they really don’t have much of a skillset for anything beyond being outlaws. Kissel described the final Etta scene well, so I’ll leave that there.
Like everyone else, I was caught off-guard by the tone of the movie, especially considering the sepia beginning was so gritty by comparison. The opening scene had some crucial character-building, but set a bad tone. I also have to agree with Kissel on Woodcock – loved that role. Going to him twice was the right amount.
Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed this movie. I had to stop it about 40 minutes in while watching at work, and I couldn’t wait to jump back in. It loses a couple points for dragging a bit in the middle and having that weird New York montage. It was technically amazing, and it clearly paved the way for the Buddy Flick sub-genre. Great pick Topper.
ReplyDelete+ Newman and Redford are fantastic
+ Perfect character-building
+ Loved the directing
+ Limited narrative added tension to what was the “boring” part of the movie
- That NY montage…
- Minor pacing issues
Grade: A